La entrevista: Emiliano Tapia
Este trimestre hemos entrevistado a Emiliano Tapia, párroco del barrio de Buenos Aires. Un hombre valiente y luchador en la mejora de las condiciones de vida de sus vecin@s y por erradicar la exclusión social que sufren por el peligroso círculo del negocio de la droga, que estrangula el presente y futuro de esta zona.
La entrevista se realizó en la iglesia del barrio, donde nos hizo sentir en todo momento muy cómodos y participes de su labor y acción social. Fue un cordial encuentro en el que destacaron los buenos sentimientos.
Ateneo Argumentando: ¿Cuál es su labor y lucha en el barrio de Buenos Aires?
Emiliano: Vamos a ver, la labor viene necesariamente desde cualquier trabajo, desde cualquier tarea. Yo me desenvuelvo en tres ámbitos distintos que están todos atravesados por una realidad y es que dentro de esos tres lugares hay situaciones de marginalidad y de exclusión. Esa es mi opción, es decir, estar junto a la marginación y junto a la exclusión. Entonces, el barrio de Buenos Aires es uno de tantos signos de marginación de barrios como consecuencia del neoliberalismo y como consecuencia de esta sociedad que llamamos modernidad, etc. El barrio de Buenos Aires es un ejemplo claro junto a otros barrios en tantos lugares. La cárcel es el espejo de esta sociedad, donde se refleja toda la problemática, parte de ella de este barrio, no en toda su globalidad y que hay fundamentalmente situaciones de marginalidad y de exclusión que te interpelan y en medio de las cuales intentas vivir tu opción de vida y la realidad del mundo rural, que sobre todo en estos momento es despoblación, desertización y envejecimiento de la población. Entonces, en este contexto es en el que hay una opción que es los más desvalidos en definitiva. Es decir, uno tiene miedo a no responder a este reto, por que yo creo que tengo la suerte de estar en lugares preferenciales para poder vivir la experiencia de anunciar el evangelio con la cual yo he optado, que coincide a la vez con la de muchos hombres y mujeres de buena voluntad aunque no sean creyentes o sean de otra religión. Entonces, es desde ahí desde lo que yo entiendo que hago en el barrio.
Situaciones más conflictivas dentro del barrio, primero las armas, segundo la droga, tercero todo lo que son los negocios en torno al ser humano y al deterioro del ser humano frente al mismo ser humano: la prostitución, todo lo que es el trafico de mujeres, de niños, de personas; es el otro tercer gran negocio, la sociedad de consumo que esclaviza al hombre por el hombre. Bueno, pues aquí participamos de las consecuencias del mundo de la droga, generándose un ghetto con un colectivo que se ha prestado y que se sigue prestando al juego. Y me da pena que el colectivo gitano se preste a este juego del mundo de la droga, y que la droga le utilice y que los narcotraficantes le utilicen para continuar el negocio, pero esa es la realidad, ¿No?.-Dinero rápido- Claro, entonces ese es uno de los contextos graves, pero como consecuencia de la permanencia de ese negocio. En estos momentos estamos dando un paso hacia la delincuencia pura y dura, es decir, cuando el ser humano se ve vacío del sentido de su vida, de formación y de cultura, de lo que significa el sentido del hombre y de la persona humana en relación con los demás, que es lo que está pasando aquí. Con un colectivo de 70 familias relacionadas con el narcotráfico, al final hay delincuencia. El dinero, el coche e incluso la agresividad de otros grupos… eso conlleva el estar metidos en la delincuencia. Entonces, esas dos realidades frente después a la otra realidad que no es menos preocupante, pero que de alguna forma te dan más posibilidades de poderla afrontar, que son las familias normalizadas entre comillas, en medio de las cuales el problema del desempleo, o de los conflictos familiares, o de relaciones generacionales… que se dan como en cualquier otro lugar, ¿No?. Esa apatía social y cultural con la cual vivimos. Entonces esas son las dos realidades que de alguna forma yo intento vivir como persona, pero claro, yo no solamente estoy aquí como la persona de Emiliano, sino que estoy aquí en este caso como creyente y como cura, y bueno, eso orienta mi vida hacia una tarea especial que es el ser capaz de vivir el evangelio y de vivir lo que significa la experiencia del evangelio, no solamente para los creyentes sino para todo hombre y mujer de buena voluntad con los cuales yo me encuentro. Por eso nos encontramos la realidad que habéis visto ahora mismo en casa, donde te encuentras un marroquí, o te encuentras un latinoamericano… que debido a ciertas circunstancias se han acercado a nosotros y con ellos intentamos dar un poco de respuesta a su vida.
A.A: ¿Cuál es su relación con la cárcel de Topas?
E: Mi relación con la cárcel de Topas es como capellán. Vamos a ver, la Iglesia tiene presencia en todas las cárceles del Estado español, ya independientemente de que haya un convenio o haya un contrato o haya un acuerdo Iglesia-Estado. Todas las cárceles tienen presencia en la Iglesia católica. Yo creo que se está trabajando en una línea muy coherente con la realidad que se están viviendo en todas las cárceles, es decir, es una apuesta por el compromiso de la libertad del preso para incorporarlo, para ayudarle en esa nueva incorporación que se debe de hacer con las personas presas a la sociedad. Si la sociedad les ha llevado a la cárcel, en la gran mayoría como consecuencia de esta sociedad tan destructiva, tan deshumanizadora en la cual vivimos, la cárcel no responde para nada a lo que significa el reto de la humanización y el reto de la inserción. Al revés, la cárcel lo que hace es deshumanizar más, y desde luego el reto que se nos plantea a nosotros y a otros colectivos aún no creyentes es el de la humanización, a través del diálogo con ellos, del encuentro con ellos, de su interpelación, del diálogo y de la reflexión… Somos capaces de apoyarles para esa nueva incorporación que tienen que hacer ellos mismo a la sociedad. Nos encontramos con un montón de barreras pero ese es el camino y ese es el proceso que tenemos muy claro.
Por lo tanto, mi relación con la cárcel es una relación sin renuncia a mi perspectiva cristiana, a mi perspectiva creyente de acompañar a las personas presas. Repito, con el diálogo, con el encuentro con ellos, la escucha y ofrecer en el acompañamiento lo que tenemos, y si lo que tenemos es una casa de acogida pues se lo ofrecemos, y si lo que tenemos son unas posibilidades de empleo como instrumento de inserción pues se lo ofrecemos, y si lo que tenemos es la oportunidad de incorporarse socialmente y culturalmente pues se lo ofrecemos. Ese es nuestro camino y eso lo hacemos, repito, desde nuestra confesión de fe pero junto con otros hombres y mujeres de buena voluntad que también lo están haciendo y sin discriminación, es decir, esta tarea no es sólo para los católicos ni sólo para los cristianos, nuestra tarea es para toda persona presa sin importar la religión ni el credo. Esa es nuestra presencia ahí en la cárcel, es una presencia de equipo, es una presencia coordinada, es una presencia organizada, programada y revisada como tiene que ser todo proceso educativo.
A.A:¿Qué opina del panorama actual de la Iglesia?
E: Vamos a ver, yo creo que la Iglesia es de las organizaciones sociales donde siempre ha habido la posibilidad de todo tipo de pensamientos y de todo tipo de grupos. También es verdad que en estos momentos domina la Iglesia a nivel de jerarquía un grupo muy tradicional, muy mirando hacia atrás, muy como en esa ansia de querer recuperar formas del pasado, dogmas del pasado. Es verdad y está dominada la Iglesia así. Incluso señala a otros grupos que van por otros caminos o llega a prohibir a estos otros grupos. Pero yo estoy convencido de que tenemos lugar, gente que pensamos de otra manera, gente que planteamos las cosas de otra manera. Yo siempre lo he dicho: “Yo nunca he tenido la más mínima barrera para poder desarrollar y para poder realizar lo que creo y lo que veo”. Es mi compromiso con los pobres en la realidad y en el mundo en el que estoy. Poner lo que tengo que es de la Iglesia, es decir, estas infraestructuras, mis mismas posibilidades culturales, sociales o económicas, de ponerlas al servicio de ellos, pero también es verdad que esta no es la opción de toda la Iglesia y desde luego no es la opción en estos momentos de la jerarquía. Es decir, la Iglesia como seguidora de Jesús debe anunciar el evangelio sobre todo y ante todo a los más pobres, y claro, ¿Los recursos económicos están puestos al servicio de los pobres? Pues ciertamente que, en general, en la Iglesia no. ¿Las posibilidades de la Iglesia están? Pues no, yo creo que todavía hay mucho rito, hay mucho dogma, hay mucha centralidad en la Iglesia y mucha menos centralidad en el mundo. Yo creo que ese es el gran secreto, ¿No?. Es decir, hay gente que todavía cree que lo que hay que hacer es seguir construyendo iglesia. Y yo creo que lo que hay que hacer y nos plantea el evangelio y más en este momento con signos vivos, tal como nos plantea el evangelio de Jesús, hay que plantear la construcción de lo que en el evangelio aparece como el reino de Dios y que otros llaman la fraternidad universal, un mundo para todos.
Emiliano Tapia a la entrada de la casa parroquial
A.A: ¿Cree que algún día habrá mujeres curas, obispos y papas?
E: Yo creo que si, no queda más remedio. Yo creo que antes del celibato hay que plantear otra cosa y es: ¿Qué significa ser sacerdote o cura dentro de la Iglesia?. Yo creo que esas formas tradicionales que durante siglos han permanecido en la Iglesia se están terminando. Por ejemplo, habría que aprovechar mucho más las energías de cuantos curas o de cuanta gente se han marchado de la Iglesia y sin embargo son personas que sienten rechazo hacia la jerarquía de la Iglesia, pero no hacia lo que significa lo más profundo de la Iglesia que es el anuncio del evangelio y del compromiso en medio del mundo. Yo creo que hay que recuperar a toda esa gente para ser el medio de las comunidades, a mi me parece que hay que recuperarles. Y después, yo creo que como segundo paso lo que habrá que hacer es que la mujer tome toda la responsabilidad en la Iglesia, y si ellas pueden coordinar una comunidad, animar a una comunidad, que lo hagan. Y si a eso se llama ser sacerdote pues bien y si no… pero que se sientan parte activa de todo lo que significa la Iglesia. Yo creo que llegará, no nos queda más remedio. Además, creo que es una obligación y un derecho por parte de las mujeres que ellas se sientan parte, eso significa que hay que poner en cuestión pues por ejemplo el celibato, hay que poner en cuestión lo que significa el machismo en los puestos de la Iglesia, pero todo como consecuencia de hacer otro planteamiento. Creo que la fórmula de seminarios ya no vale, eso no responde, lo que si habrá que hacer es ver qué tipo de animadores tienen que haber en las comunidades como en cualquier comunidad humana, quién tiene que estar, cómo lo tiene que hacer, de qué manera puede orientar a la gente, que la misma gente tenga posibilidad de elegir entre ellos a aquellas personas más valiosas, o a aquellas personas que mejor lo puedan hacer dentro de esa comunidad. Yo creo que aquí hay que volver un poco a los orígenes, a mi me parece que tendrá que llegar, es más, yo estoy seguro que en muchos lugares de la Iglesia, sobre todo en América Latina esto está sucediendo ya, lo que pasa es que está como muy tapado. Hoy todavía se sigue viendo la jerarquía de la Iglesia, los obispos, los curas… es verdad, todas esas imágenes que nos aparecen. Pero hay otra forma de ser Iglesia y otra forma de entenderla que irá apareciendo. Lo que pasa es que también es cierto que mientras, estamos sufriendo todos, porque la imagen que damos no es desde luego la mejor desde el punto de vista evangélico. -Se da una imagen como reacia- Claro, muy de dogma, muy de control. Nos resistimos a que la ciencia sea la que determine, no la religión, en temas de biogenética, en temas de bioética, nos resistimos al campo de la sexualidad por ejemplo, y de la afectividad, queremos seguir controlando y determinando cuando tendrá que ser toda la sociedad quien decida pero no desde la influencia de una religión muy concreta. Nos resistimos a perder el poder dentro de la educación con todo lo que es la religión, nos resistimos a que ya no podemos imponer las cosas por dogma. Todo eso pues nos va a exigir un camino muy grande, va a ir muy lento pero ya está sucediendo, aunque oficialmente no aparezca pero yo estoy convencido de que ya está sucediendo. En los ámbitos en los que me muevo, de grupos a nivel de la Iglesia española y mundial, hay muchos grupos que ya están planteando las cosas de otras maneras. (Emiliano nos enseña una carta de Latinoamérica) Esta carta por ejemplo, que una comunidad cristiana de Bolivia hace sobre la realidad de Bolivia es verdaderamente revolucionaria pero profundamente evangélica. Es una carta de una comunidad a los obispos de Bolivia. Esto existe, esto no es un invento, es una realidad concreta de otra manera de ver el mundo y de otra manera de ver los acontecimientos.
A.A: ¿Qué opina de la postura oficial de la Iglesia con respecto a los anticonceptivos, aborto y homosexualidad?
E: Yo creo, primero que a la Iglesia no le corresponde el dictar que es lo que hay que hacer en estos campos, le corresponde a la sociedad, le corresponde a quien la sociedad determine que será el Estado, el diálogo con la sociedad, eso lo primero. Por lo tanto la Iglesia lo que si puede hacer es, dentro de ella misma intentar hablar del evangelio, determinar que es lo que tiene que hacer, que es lo que tendrán que hacer aquellos que confiesen la fe. Es decir, yo en principio como seguro que muchos hombres y mujeres, sobre todo mujeres. Yo estoy seguro que la gran mayoría de las mujeres no quieren abortar, seguro, sin embargo es una realidad que tienes que tener en cuenta, entonces, ¿tiene que decir la Iglesia lo que hay que hacer?. La Iglesia no tiene que decirlo, tendrá que determinarlo la sociedad, pero partiendo del principio, repito, de que sin duda alguna, para la gran mayoría de las mujeres que incluso se vean abocadas al aborto, seguro que en el fondo no lo quieren y hay que hacer toda una tarea de prevención, de vocación de no se cuantas cosas y desde luego de acompañamiento a esa persona que está sufriendo cuando al final dice: “pues voy a abortar”. Es una decisión personal y es una decisión suya.
Y en los otros campos de la sexualidad yo creo que ahí quien tiene que hablar es la ciencia, es decir, todavía la Iglesia, una gran parte de la misma sigue diciendo que la homosexualidad por ejemplo es una enfermedad, es decir, la ciencia lo está diciendo clarísimamente que no es ninguna desviación, entonces ¿Qué tiene que decir la Iglesia?. Nada, a ayudar a orientar la vida a cada uno según su determinación. Yo creo que en ese sentido todavía estamos muy acostumbrados, en general o una parte de la Iglesia a controlar, a dictar, a juzgar, a condenar, y yo creo que esas formas hoy ya no valen.
A.A: ¿Y por qué cree usted que la juventud se aleja cada vez más de la Iglesia?
E: Por varias razones, es decir, todas estas cosas les estorban a los jóvenes, yo creo que todas estas cosas no se las quieren plantear. El joven de hoy en general no es un joven crítico, en general en nuestra sociedad, y a mí me parece, que es necesario ser críticos, no es un joven analista y hay que ser analistas en nuestra sociedad. Yo creo que es un joven que viene de una sociedad o de un sistema socioeconómico mercantilista donde parece que todo vale, y no todo vale. Hay que salir de la Iglesia para ponernos junto a otros hombres y mujeres de buena voluntad para saber dialogarlo con ellos, es decir, yo no creo que los jóvenes tengan que volver a la Iglesia, es la Iglesia la que tiene que salir como uno más en medio de los jóvenes para dialogar, escuchar, plantear todas estás cuestiones sin imponer, que yo creo que es lo que rechazan los jóvenes. Y mientras eso no lo hagamos…
O sea, lo que no podemos hacer es decir: “es que no vienen jóvenes a los seminarios”, ¿Cómo van a venir?. ”Es que no vienen los jóvenes a las iglesias”, ¿Cómo van a venir si es un rito puro y duro en la gran mayoría de los casos?. Yo creo que es eso, es decir, estamos todavía metidos en unas barreras donde hemos de salir. Yo es que lo veo con toda claridad. Yo no puedo ir a la cárcel con un espíritu de que yo soy la única verdad, no. Yo no puedo ir a este barrio en medio de la droga para decir que yo como creyente cristiano soy el que tengo… no. No puedo seguir en el pueblo que puede ser lo más tradicional para… no. No somos la única verdad, antes si, ahora no, eso se acabó ya. O sea, la verdad hoy y la única verdad no es el ser humano creyente sino el ser humano. Y habrá gente que no es creyente entre los jóvenes y son geniales, lo que pasa que es verdad que habrá que acompañarles para que sean más críticos. Para que se den cuenta de que no todo vale en un mundo tan economicista, tan pragmático y tan consumista como en el que estamos viviendo, no todo vale, que los valores de la solidaridad son valores que hay que analizarlos y vivirlos en los contextos concretos del mercado en el cual vivimos, etc, etc. –Más autocrítica- Mucha más. Pero eso, como igual que tenemos que autocriticarnos nosotros. El gran problema es cuando tu vas con tu verdad, no, o sea, la tuya no es la única -es que no tenemos una verdad única-, todavía seguimos planteando esta historia.
A.A: ¿Qué opina de la teología de la liberación?
E: Vamos a ver, la teología de la liberación nace en un contexto muy concreto, en el contexto de América Latina, pero las intuiciones fundamentales de la teología de la liberación son totalmente válidas para nuestra realidad. Es decir la opción por los pobres traída aquí a nuestra realidad y a nuestro contexto, al contexto de los países ricos, yo creo que incluso es mucho más exigente, mucho más comprometido, eso no lo hemos acabado de entender. “La opción por los pobres es una cosa de americanos”, no, los pobres también están entre nosotros y están lejos.
El problema es: ¿Cómo hacemos aquí para que por ejemplo los bancos o las grandes empresas que son las que están empobreciendo el tercer mundo y que son las que viven y de las que vivimos en nuestro mundo?, ¿Cómo somos capaces de hacerle frente a esa realidad?. Es decir, yo no puedo permitir que el Banco Santander o el Banco Bilbao Vizcaya o el Banco Central estén expoliando el tercer mundo con unos créditos del 36%, del 38% haciéndoles cada vez más pobres mañana aparecen en la prensa diciendo que este año hemos ganado, 10.000, 15.000 o 20.000 millones de euros. -Los accionistas- Claro. ¿Pero de quién? Los has ganado a costa de los pobres. Nosotros somos parte de ese mundo, del mundo de los bancos, de CAMPSA, de Telefónica, de Repsol, etc. Entonces tenemos toda una tarea importantísima para liberarnos y ser capaces de ejercer la solidaridad desde lejos. Por eso a mi me parece que el hecho de ir a América Latina es importante o el hecho de ir al lugar de los pobres. Pero yo creo que tenemos mucho que hacer también aquí en este sentido, desde barrios como este nuestro, desde lugares o desde opciones como las que desde aquí tomamos, opciones, distintas, planteamientos distintos para nuestro mundo. Es decir, los bancos pueden hablar de solidaridad pero hay que decirles “mire, eso es un engaño, un insulto, con eso ustedes lo que están cometiendo es un asesinato en los pueblos más pobres”. La solidaridad hay que ejercerla de otra manera y hay que vivirla de otra manera. Pero llevar esto a la práctica, en nuestro mundo es muy difícil porque estamos todos como muy cogidos por el consumo, por el sistema, pero yo creo que por allí hay grupo. Nosotros tenemos por ejemplo ahora en el primer fin de semana de octubre un encuentro de barrios a nivel del Estado español que están trabajando y están luchando por este otro planteamiento de recuperar lo que sería el medio de los barrios esa lucha y ese esfuerzo de red social que hemos perdido. Pero el asociacionismo en este sentido, es decir, por que asociaciones hay la tira pero son asociaciones al servicio “de”, que recuperemos para el mundo de hoy. No en el contexto en el que se vivieron en los años 60 y 70 sino en el mundo de hoy, con las claves del mundo de hoy, lo que es una red que genere otro tipo de sociedad y de cultura, incluso en la economía. Porque el tema de la economía social a mi me parece que es un tema… Ahí en el mundo de la empresa, es decir, cuando en definitiva pones no el dinero como el pilar fundamental de tu acción sino pones al ser humano que al final es lo único que es importante y que merece la pena. -Las relaciones laborales- Claro, son utopías muy gordas pero por ahí va el humanismo.
A.A: ¿Y usted cree que el cristianismo y el anarquismo son dos términos compatibles?
E: Yo creo que si, el anarquismo entendido y el cristianismo entendido como apuesta por la fraternidad universal, parece que son caminos perfectamente compatibles pero entendidos así. Para conseguir un fin tienes que utilizar los medios adecuados, por eso decía antes “no todo vale”. Así como otras formas sociales, políticas y culturales no valen, yo si creo que hay fórmulas que no son perfectas pero como no somos perfectos nadie, pero si movimientos que están dentro del anarquismo o movimientos que están dentro del socialismo. Pero no el socialismo que aparece en esa fórmula política en la cual parece que ya está solucionado todos los problemas del mundo y lo único que están haciendo es complicarlo cada vez más, o poniéndonos a todos desde un bando y los demás no vale, no. A mi me parece que hay fórmulas a la izquierda, desde luego no desde la derecha, pero si a la izquierda que se identifican perfectamente con la búsqueda de ese objetivo que es la fraternidad universal. Yo no tengo que bautizarle con nada, yo lo buscaré desde mi confesión de fe, y a lo mejor a través de un movimiento anarquista, desde luego no desde un movimiento capitalista.
A.A: ¿Te sientes apoyado desde las instituciones y colectivos sociales?
E: Desde las instituciones no. No entienden esto, no quieren entenderlo, no quieren. -¿Públicas y privadas?- Públicas y privadas, no quieren entenderlo. Están en otro mundo y mira, hoy no se entiende lo que no se vive, o no se quiere entender. Si queremos a este colectivo humano que está en el narcotráfico y que está rompiendo toda una red social del barrio, si le queremos hay que dispersarlo. Yo se que esto es muy duro, pero humanamente desde el punto de vista de las ciencias educativas, desde las ciencias sociales, no se puede trabajar con un colectivo así. Yo se que es muy duro pero hay que decirlo. Y esto no interesa porque al Ayuntamiento, a la Junta, a la Subdelegación del gobierno y a la Policía esto le complica la vida, “pero oiga, ustedes están para eso, para eso cobran, para complicarse la vida”; pero están en otra clave, eso no lo ven, no lo padecen, casi no lo padezco ni yo que estoy a una esquina del barrio. En la cárcel nos pasa exactamente igual, fíjate que la cárcel está a 30 kilómetros de Salamanca, de la gran urbe, está en medio del campo. -Como si quisieran desplazarlo- Completamente. La gente: “¡ah!, ¿pero hay 1800 presos”, “pues si”; “¡ah!, ¿Pero el 60% son extranjeros?”, “Pues si, y los que están en la cárcel no son necesariamente delincuentes, ¿eh?”, “¡ah!, ¿si? pero alguna cosa habrán hecho mal”, “Pues, mire, no, a lo mejor usted y yo hemos hecho peor lo que pasa es que hay otras circunstancias que lo están llevando a los presos allí hoy”. -Y la mayoría enfermos- Hay una parte muy importante de enfermos. Entonces, ¿qué pasa?, que lo que no se conoce ni se analiza, menos transformarlo, comprometerte con ello. Pero pasa lo mismo en el medio rural ahora mismo donde ha huido tanta gente, o sea, nos encontramos nidos de envejecimiento, de enfermos y eso es dolor. El mismo medio rural que está absolutamente abandonado para el disfrute de unos cuantos y no precisamente de la gente que vive en el campo. Ese es el gran problema, las instituciones inventan cosas, si habéis visto cogéis la prensa de todos estos días, ahora los toros y no se qué y siempre aparecen los mismos en todas las fotos. De vez en cuando aparecemos algunos de nosotros diciendo algunas cosillas, pero la verdad es que siempre aparecen los mismos. ¿Por qué? Porque siempre están vendiendo el mismo producto: “que buenos somos, que bien lo hacemos y que mal lo hace el otro”, así no vamos a ninguna parte, eso no construye una sociedad más justa y más notable.
A.A: ¿Cuál cree que va a ser el futuro y cual le gustaría que fuera?
E: Vamos a ver, estoy convencido de que hay que apostar por la espera y que seremos capaces. A mi me parece que hay una tercera vía en nuestro mundo que hay que trabajarla que no es la vía capitalista, ni del comunismo fracasado, el comunismo fracasado no el comunismo en si, que esa es otra historia, o sea el liberalismo… -El estatismo- Eso es. Yo creo que hay una tercera vía que es la de los foros sociales mundiales que van en la línea de lo que se llama un mundo más solidario, me parece que esa es la tercera vía en la que hay que trabajar. En la que yo creo que están apostando Bolivia, Brasil, Paraguay, muchos países en la tierra, con todos sus riesgos, sus equivocaciones por que nadie somos perfectos. En una línea de justicia, en el reparto de los bienes de la tierra, en el derecho de los pueblos a gestionar sus propios recursos. -¿Se puede decir entonces que de alguna forma esos países, en esas ideas, van más avanzados que nosotros?- Sin duda alguna. Vamos, yo es que estoy convencido de que siempre los grandes cambios han venido de los países más pobres, los ricos lo único que hacemos es ponernos barreras, de defendernos con leyes e incluso barrearas físicas como la de Ceuta o como en tantos sitios. Si, yo desde luego no tengo ninguna esperanza ahora mismo de todo lo que significa el mundo rico, ninguna, antes al contrario. Creo que tenemos que mirar hacia esos países más pobres y hacia esas realidades muchas más pobres porque de ellos va a venir la verdad, con todos los riesgos de equivocarse, con todas las equivocaciones que tengan, pero me parece que están haciendo apuestas valiosas: o sea, el movimiento zapatista. Yo estoy seguro que en África, que conocemos mucho menos hay cosas interesantes, yo estoy seguro que en Asia hay cosas interesantes que nos las conocemos porque claro eso no vende los medios de comunicación. -Y en Oriente están muy oprimidos- Si. Pero en esta línea, la nueva línea de la solidaridad y la justicia, en reparto y en el aprovechamiento de los recursos, defendiendo cada pueblo. No podemos permitir que el 80% de la riqueza se la estén absorbiendo los ricos, los países ricos de la Tierra, no puede ser. Yo creo que por hay es por donde van a ir las cosas necesariamente, por eso tenemos que estar yo creo con los ojos muy abiertos y con el oído muy despierto para saber escuchar y ver lo que allí sucede. Yo ya cada vez miro menos para Estados Unidos porque Obama no nos va a aportar nada, ni nos va a aportar nada por mucho que vengan de Francia, y mucho menos ya las realidades tan extremas como lo de Berlusconi en Italia y demás. O sea, ya no, para allí no miro, quiero mirar hacia estas otras realidades, que por otra parte, claro esta. ¿Porqué no? Sirven al sistema, incluso a los medios de comunicación, pues ya no tengo nada que esperar de ellos.
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